australian lancaster bomber crews
Generally speaking the standard Lancaster crew was seven (7) however, some crews were increased to eight (8) members. Australian born aircrew after completing flying training in Australia had accepted Short Service Commissions with the RAF and were serving when War broke out.These men saw action during the German invasion of France and during the Battle of Britain. "Australia @ War" WWII Research Products. 'His eyewitness account is frank about the dangers of the role' i newspaper. Bowen was commissioned to paint a typical crew that flew Lancaster bombers on the intense bombing raids over Germany and occupied Europe. "Too often they went missing on their first trip or their second trip. The 16 Lancasters which made this attack carried 13 Australians, four of whom were captains of aircraft. The crew-members in this photograph are (l-r) Alf Holden (navigator), Vic Laker (wireless operator), Freddy Garrett (rear gunner), Quentin Snow (mid-upper gunner), Bernie Soper (bomb aimer), Bert Wright (pilot), and Bob Bateman (flight engineer). Formed as a heavy bomber unit in 1941, 460 Squadron was made up mostly of Australians, hence the unit's bomber earning the nickname of 'Aussie'. "George", marked AR-G, was regarded as a "lucky" aircraft, returning from eighty nine bombing operations over Europe during 1942-44. And as 2004 approaches my research has again taken another step forward with the decision to begin logging ALL Lancaster and Manchester bomber operational sorties - this will include: take off/landing times, crew names, target, date of raid and possibly bomb loads. In the European Theatre of World War II, RAAF personnel were especially notable in RAF Bomber Command: they represented two percent of all RAAF personnel during the war, but accounted for 23% of the total number killed in action. Green and red target indicators confirmed the presence of our Pathfinder force. a series of t In the late summer and autumn of 1943, Bomber Command regularly attacked towns in Southern Germany. Australian War Memorial, 1963. The Stirlings, lower and slower, were likely to draw the German night fighters. He succeeded but the bomber hit a bank and the gallant young Australian was killed. “Most people will never get the chance to sit in the cockpit of a Lancaster bomber like “G for George”,” Mr Anderson said. The Nose art shows Kangaroos instead of bombs so perhaps the Lancaster was an RAAF plane or had an Australian Pilot. Preoccupied with their flight preparations, the men expressed no particular interest in Bowen's attempt to draw them, but their bravery and youth captivated the artist. The first of the navigational aids to help Bomber Command to locate its target was Gee but its initial use was disappointing and it was available for only a few aircraft. On 9 July 1941, Bomber Command received a formal directive which defined its main aim as "dislocating the German transportation system and destroying the morale of the civilian population as a whole and of industrial workers in particular." Only 25% were officers. Like painting ghosts. Generally speaking the standard Lancaster crew was seven (7) however, some crews were increased to eight (8) members. Air crews of RAF No. Therefore, a total of 75,446 airmen (60 percent of operational airmen) were killed, wounded or … In England, in February, 1944, Hec was posted to the Royal Australian Air Force 460 squadron, joining a crew of a Lancaster Bomber. It was first formed as a heavy bomber squadron during World War II on 15 November 1941 and disbanded on 10 October 1945 after seeing extensive combat over Europe. It was supported by Mackenzie makes the case that Bomber Command superstitions and mascots kept crews flying when the odds were stacked … He flew onto the target where the aircraft was again hit, this time seriously wounding Middleton. Lynch himself was badly injured and spent many weeks in various hospitals. The Lancaster Aircrew Flying Log: every Crew Member was required to keep a Flying Logbook of every Flight he took including Air Tests, Transport, Training & Operational Flying.. Sadly all our 2020 tours have been cancelled due to COVID-19 travel restrictions. Mr Kingsford Smith said the demand for bomber crews was so great that Australian enlistees were often rushed through without proper training. Places of Pride, the National Register of War Memorials, is a new initiative designed to record the locations and photographs of every publicly accessible memorial across Australia. Strategic Bombing did not completely stop in the lead up to the invasion. Rarely have Australian airmen conducted strategic He succeeded but the bomber hit a bank and the gallant young Australian was killed. Viking Press, 1985. All rights reserved. "The crew is depicted in front of the menacing image of their Avro Lancaster bomber, looming above them like a bird. Nine rail centres were specified as primary objectives and six main towns with important rail facilities as secondary targets. Tribute to the men of 463/467 Lancaster RAAF Squadrons in Australia, continuing the bond, friendship and honouring our Veterans. The first ground instruction schools in Australia under the EATS scheme opened in April 1940 and were followed a month later by elementary flying courses. Australian casualties in Bomber Command were 3,486 dead and 265 injured. You can also visit our Site Map for a comprehensive view of everything on this site in a single window. 2020 From the start of April until 5 June 1944, Bomber Command supported the attacks leading up to the D-Day landings. On 28 April 1944, the night after Bowen completed the initial sketches for … The majority have chosen to travel with us to the same destination at a later date or have been otherwise refunded. From ‘Beating the Odds: Superstition and Human Agency in RAF Bomber Command, 1942-1945 by S P MacKenzie, WAR IN HISTORY, 2015. ), Other than Berlin, the main targets during the winter of 1943/44 were cities which supported the German aircraft industry. In August 1942, the Pathfinder force was created under the command of Australian Air Commodore Donald Bennett, an acknowledged expert on navigation. Another 40 Australians, including 11 pilots flying with 16 different RAF squadrons that night were killed. Despite his wounds, Middleton flew the aircraft back to England where five of the crew were able to bail out safely but with fuel almost exhausted he was killed when the aircraft crashed into the sea. In November 1942, Flight Sergeant Rawdon Middleton was flying the four engined Stirling Bomber when the aircraft was hit on the way to Turin, Italy. Although Bomber Command concentrated its efforts on these major battles, many other targets were attacked during the same period. William Morrow and Co Inc, 1974. One of the men, Pilot Officer Thomas Lynch, who was presumed to have perished with the rest of the crew, was eventually discovered in a German prisoner-of-war camp. Bomber raids a death sentence In England, in February, 1944, Hec was posted to the Royal Australian Air Force 460 squadron, joining a crew of a Lancaster Bomber. In the last ten months of the war, there was strong argument on which direction strategic bombing should take. In the RAF such items were rare amongst bomber crews by this stage of the war November 1944 closed with a ‘gaggle’ to Dortmund when the flak got our range and several were wounded, including Sandy Lane and Dave Mattingley, the quiet Australian. Bomber Command soon found that the Lancaster was by far the most satisfactory aircraft for weight carrying, range and altitude and by July 1942 there were as many Lancasters as Halifaxes (the next most powerful type) in operation and there after the Lancaster predominated until the end of the war when they equipped no less that 55 squadrons. 460 Squadron Royal Australian Air Force. Anyone who would like their relative who served with 49 Squadron or any other Squadron adding to this section please contact me on the email below. However, at the same time, work on bombing technique and the aircraft to get the bombs to the target was proceeding. Two further 1,000 bomber raids were carried out in May and June 1942 but they did not have the same success as the first raid. Window (aluminium strips dropped from the attacking aircraft to confuse the German air and ground radar) was first used during these raids with great success. No. G for George, the 460 squadron's most famous Lancaster, has been in the collection of the Australian War Memorial since the mid 1950s. The Australian Lancaster Bomber “G for George” was delivered to No.460 RAAF squadron on the 27th October 1942 (where it became “G for George”) to assist with the squadrons night bombing operations over enemy territory. No. The Australian government expressed the wish to consolidate RAAF airmen into RAAF units but there was never an Australian Group in Bomber Command to compare with No 6 (Canadian) group. This was one of the most feared moments for the big bomber’s seven-man crew, captained by their pilot, RAAF Squadron Leader Bill Forbes, as they had to fly their aircraft straight and level for the time it took to open the bomb doors, release the load at the aiming point, then take a photograph to show how close they were to the correct position, before climbing away as fast as the Lancaster’s four Rolls Royce … The artist had only made preliminary sketches of the crew, but she returned to her London studio to complete the painting, working from pencil sketches (also in the Memorial's collection), and official photographs. This was Bomber Command's worst loss in one raid during the entire war. In Norman McIntyre’s photo album there is a photograph of him with three of Australian friends in the RAAF. References A fifth Australian squadron, No 462, joined Bomber Command in August 1944 and it flew the last RAAF operational mission on 2/3 May 1945. 460 Squadron (RAAF) - Pilots and Crews by John Watson . 462 . The bomber war was fought largely by young, civilian volunteers from Britain and the Commonwealth, commanded by men who joined up before the Second World War.The vast majority of aircrew were in their late teens or early twenties. The Australian War Memorial acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia. 464 Motto- Aequo Amimo . Between November 1943 and March 1944, Bomber Command launched 16 the Battles of the Ruhr and Hamburg, the results of the Battle of Berlin m ajor attacks against Berlin. While Fighter Command fought the Battle of Britain, Bomber Command took the attack to Germany and of 47 Australian pilots actively engaged, five were killed and six became prisoners of war. Bombers did not have rigid take-off times, routes were not set out, there were no navigation aids, no set bombing heights In the early hours of September 3, 1943, the Lancaster bomber crew of ‘F for Freddie’ took off from Langar Airfield in Nottinghamshire, England bound for Berlin. Further attacks were made against road and rail bridges over the Seine and the Loire and against German radar and wireless installations. The Avro Lancaster was equipped to provide positions for the Pilot, Navigator (and the Set Operator when introduced), Air Bomber, Wireless Operator, Flight Engineer and Air Gunners We Guide to Strike by Gil Cohen The crew compartment in an Avro Lancaster consisted of a single deck to accommodate the Pilot, Navigator (and the Set Operator when… G for George, the 460 squadron's most famous Lancaster, has been in the collection of the Australian War Memorial since the mid 1950s. Air War Over Europe 1944-45. The last major raid of the winter was to the important political and industrial city of Numberg (Nuremberg) on 30/31 March 1944. David Fellowes, 90, a rear gunner with 460 Squadron, Royal Australian Air Force, said: “Every time I see a Lancaster and hear those Merlin engines my heart jumps back to 1944. The Australian War Memorial was voted the number one landmark in Australia by travellers in the 2016 Trip Advisor awards. At the time 5 Group was the only one flying Lancaster bombers. The first two Australian medium bomber squadrons began to form - No 455 in June and No 458 in September 1941. Air Officer Commander-in-Chief Harris had no doubt that the Lancaster was the `finest bomber of the war’: 463/467 Lancaster RAAF Squadrons. With PFF guidance, the bomber crews were able to increase the percentage of strikes within five kilometres of the aiming point, from just over 20 per cent in early 1942 to 90 per cent by war’s end. Messenger, Charles. Australian, which performed the vital task of marking targets for the attacking bombers. W4783 (George) was stationed at Binbrook one of the areas command bases. Five RAAF aircraft with 35 aircrew were lost, of whom 7 of the 20 killed were Australians. See more ideas about lancaster bomber, royal air force, ww2 aircraft. It is now none of those things." The crew-members in this photograph are (l-r) Alf Holden (navigator), Vic Laker (wireless operator), Freddy Garrett (rear gunner), Quentin Snow (mid-upper gunner), Bernie Soper (bomb aimer), Bert Wright (pilot), and Bob Bateman (flight engineer). The calibre of these men is exemplified by the deeds of Flying Officer L.R. An increasing flow of Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders meant that one in four aircrew came from the Dominions. Bomber Command launched 53 raids against railway workshops in this period, with RAAF aircraft involved in 25 raids for the loss of 17 aircraft. Unlike were indecisive. Later, in 1943, he was posted to England to Bomber Command, where he commanded an Australian Lancaster squadron. Bomber Command had abandoned daylight bombing in favour of night bombing early in the war because of unacceptable losses. Eight Lancasters were lost, involving the deaths of 55 men with only a solitary Australian rear gunner surviving to become a prisoner of war. 460 Squadron, Second World War, 1939-1945. They are shown wearing their full flying gear including 'Mae West' life jackets, flying helmets and headphones. Air War Against Germany and Italy 1939-1945. "Too often they went missing on their first trip or their second trip. The Battle of the Ruhr opened on the night of 5/6 March 1943 when 369 aircraft, including 33 from the three Australian squadrons, attacked Essen in a highly successful raid. Mar 6, 2017 - Explore martin renshaw's board "lancs and crews" on Pinterest. A lot of the Commonwealth Crews flew in mixed Air crews, and one of my Uncles crew that were shot down and killed over Germany was a member of the RAAF. 458 . 467 Squadron RAAF was a Royal Australian Air Force bomber squadron, active over North West Europe during World War II. Dozens of searchlights speared skywards around the familiar box barrage of exploding anti-aircraft shells. "Australia @ War" WWII Research Products The crews practised over the Eyebrook Reservoir, the Derwent Reservoir and the Fleet Lagoon at Chesil Beach. During the Battle of the Ruhr, the famous dams raid took place. Item copyright: Copyright expired - public domain. Bomber Command also assisted allied land operations, both on the offensive and in helping the Americans stop the German offensive in the Ardennes at the end of 1944. Hampdens and Whitleys with four engined bombers which could carry twice the bombload of a medium bomber. The appointment, on 23 February 1942, of Air Chief Marshall Arthur Harris was to change the course of the strategic bombing campaign and, under his leadership, Bomber Command was forged into a powerful fighting force. The first Australian EATS drafts from Canada reached England in December 1940 and by March 1941 individual RAAF men were joining Bomber Command squadrons. © Battlefield History Tours ABN 74107857705, PO Box 201, Northmead NSW 2152, AUSTRALIA, Phone: 1300 450 436 or +61 412 399 693. This was one of the most feared moments for the big bomber’s seven-man crew, captained by their pilot, RAAF Squadron Leader Bill Forbes, as they had to fly their aircraft straight and level for the time it took to open the bomb doors, release the load at the aiming point, then take a photograph to show how close they were to the correct position, before climbing away as fast as the Lancaster’s four Rolls Royce … It was only as the war neared its end that the morality of area attacks on w hile still attacking Ge cities was seriously raised and then only after the bombing of Dresden in March 1945. For the last 10 days of the war, Lancasters were employed flying liberated prisoners of war back to England and in dropping food and medicine to civilians in Holland who had not been reached by allied ground forces. History ToursIncorporating History and Heritage tours. Our collection contains a wealth of material to help you research and find your connection with the wartime experiences of the brave men and women who served in Australia’s military forces. Twenty Thousand Australian airmen served with (the Bomber Command of the Royal Air Force during the 1939-45 War. Australians continued to be scattered among British Squadrons and it was an Australian pilot, flying with AF flying with Bomber Command to win the R AF No 149 Squadron who was the only member of the RA Victoria Cross. Bomber Command strategy until mid-1941 was to attack petrol, oil and lubricant supplies but German military and political successes in South Eastern Europe in the first half of 1941 dramatically improved its petrol and oil situation. This web site is dedicated to the aircrew of Bomber Command, and to all those mates who did not return, who served in the forefront of the war against the enemy for six long years, in which the squadrons were never withdrawn from operations. (SDF) Means = Other Squadron Planes and Crews who flew with 460 Squadron to carry out special Target Marking duties for No 1 Group, Bomber Command. After the war, 750 Australian aircrew were released from German prisoner of war camps, most of whom would have flown with Bomber Command. Later, in 1943, he was posted to England to Bomber Command, where he commanded an Australian Lancaster squadron. 1942 and flew their first missions in January 1943 but with few Australian aircrew and fewer Australian ground crew. In Lancasters the seven crew trades were: pilot, navigator, bomb aimer, wireless operator, mid-upper gunner, rear gunner, and flight engineer. This current page is one of a number of listing pages which our system creates automatically to help you find relevant material by showing all pages that are linked in some specific way. Studio group portrait of the Lancaster Bomber Crew, members of 460 Squadron, RAF. 1 foreword 2 objective 3 list of pilots and crews … The backbone of Bomber Command from 1939 until 1942 was the Wellington bomber which equipped No 455 Squadron. The raid was also important for the heartening effect it had on British public opinion and this helped strengthen Harris' demand for more bombers. And as 2004 approaches my research has again taken another step forward with the decision to begin logging ALL Lancaster and Manchester bomber operational sorties - this will include: take off/landing times, crew names, target, date of raid and possibly bomb loads. RAAF aircraft dispatched, just under 6% (45 aircraft) were lost. As a boy, Vic Jay was fascinated by his father’s wartime experiences as part of a Lancaster bomber crew. Jack Trist (Bomb Aimer), Fred Smith (Navigator), Harry Ellis (Air Gunner), Jack McQueen (air Gunner), Alan Baskerville (Pilot), Jack Goulding (Air Gunner). Bomber Command, 460 Squadron RAAF; back row 1-r: Sergeant D G Champkin of the RAF, flight engineer; Pilot Officer Thomas Lynch, rear gunner; Flying Officer Hector Harrison, wireless operator; Flying Officer Ronald Neal, mid upper gunner; front row l-r: Flying Officer Marmion Carroll, navigator; Squadron Leader Eric Jarman, pilot; Flying Officer Francis Jackson, bomb aimer. A German doctor told him the remaining crew had been killed. A fifth Australian squadron, No 462, joined Bomber Command in August 1944 and it flew the last RAAF operational mission on 2/3 May 1945. 795 bombers including 75 from the four Australian squadrons were dispatched but 95 aircraft including 5 Australian aircraft failed to return. Air Crew Personnel. Much effort was diverted in this period into attacks against ports and harbours which held German capital ships and U-boats and in minelaying operations. From March until July, 43 raids were launched against the Ruhr causing extensive damage to many of the industrial cities of that region. Can anyone help with more information? Come and see why. Bowen harboured a particular interest in group portraits with a preference for the decorative portrait: "I would much welcome the chance to do group portraits as a formal decorative scheme, with emphasis on linear design. In her capacity as an official war artist, Stella Bowen was stationed with the Royal Air Force at Binbrook, Lincolnshire, where … Royal Australian Air Force Squadrons Bomber Command . As it appears travel restrictions will continue in 2021, tours listed will run in 2022 on dates similar to those published for 2021. In her capacity as an official war artist, Stella Bowen was stationed with the Royal Air Force at Binbrook, Lincolnshire, where … Mr Kingsford Smith said the demand for bomber crews was so great that Australian enlistees were often rushed through without proper training. On board for this particular bombing run was BBC correspondent Wynford Vaughan-Thomas and sound recordist Reg Pidsley. Identified left to right, back row: 435999 Warrant Officer (WO) Jack Barden Haining, RAAF (mid upper gunner), 436989 WO Neville Bishop 'Snowy' Johnson RAAF, (rear Gunner), 428670 WO Patrick Carl 'Logger' Dowling, RAAF (wireless operator), 431366 Pilot Officer William Jeffery 'Jeff' Mackay RAAF, … Of 787 This and other support from Bomber Command helped to contribute to the success of the invasion. The original dam busters: L to R Bob Hay, Lance Howard, David Shannon, Jack Leggo, Spam Spafford, Micky Martin, Les Knight and Bob Kellow. The Americans and the RAF Chief of Air Staff argued for concentration against oil supplies, the Deputy Supreme Commander, Air Marshall Tedder argued for an attack against transportation and communications, while Harris still favoured area bombing. "It [the Lancaster] was designed with one task — to level Germany," Mr Trevan said. In late July and early August, Hamburg was attacked in four major raids in ten days causing enormous destruction with a conflagration, leaving the city in smouldering ruins. A total of 9,105 aircraft were dispatched to Berlin and over 6% (539 aircraft) were lost. 463 Motto-Press on Regardless . THERE are perhaps just 400 people left from the young Australian crews who flew perilous missions in Bomber Command over Europe in World War … 1,920 likes. Your generous donation will be used to ensure the memory of our Defence Forces and what they have done for us, and what they continue to do for our freedom remains – today and into the future. The RAF heavy bombers of World War II, namely the Stirling, Halifax, and Lancaster, normally had a crew of seven men. Crews were formed by the men themselves, without regard to nationality, at operational training units and did not care to be broken up on arrival at squadrons. Following amputation of his right leg and more time in hospital, he was posted to Stalag IXC to await repatriation. Stella Bowen’s (1893–1947) Bomber crew is a moving tribute to six Australians and one Englishman comprising a Lancaster bomber crew of No. 460 Squadron is a Royal Australian Air Force intelligence unit active within the Defence Imagery and Geospatial Organisation. However, any raid against Berlin required a minimum of 500 miles flying over hostile territory. Of the twelve other Australians, only two were killed, with ten returning safely. The air attack on Germany continued for the rest of 1941 but it was not able to concentrate wholly on the offensive action of strategic bombing until February 1942. After some delays both were flying regular missions against Germany by the end of 1941. By morning, Bowen's subjects were reported missing. Twenty Thousand Australian airmen served with (the Bomber Command of the Royal Air Force during the 1939-45 War. Lost Lancaster crew identified after 68 years by wireless operator's wedding ring. Under the EATS scheme, aircrew were trained for Coastal, Fighter and Transport Commands as well as Bomber Command but it was to Bomber Command that the great majority were allotted. Uniforms and symbols would lend themselves to this treatment." Flying Officer Marmion Carroll, navigator, Flying Officer Hector Harrison, wireless navigator, Flying Officer Ronald Neal, mid-upper gunner, Flying Officer Francis Jackson, bomb aimer, Pilot Officer Hector Harrison, wireless operator, Neal, Ronald Leslie (Flying Officer, b.1910 - d.1944), framed: 103.8 cm x 80.8 cm x 6.5 cm; unframed: 86.9 x 63.9 x 2.0 cm, United Kingdom: England, Greater London, London. ... Those who have booked on our tours impacted by COVID-19 travel restrictions have been contacted. Middlebrook, Martin The Nuremberg Raid. She later wrote to her brother: "It was horrible having to finish the picture after the men were lost. 'A fascinating and fast-paced account of the exploits of an Avro Lancaster bomber crew from 97 Squadron RAF' Herald. RAF Station Binbrook. Lancaster Aircrew. Harris suffered no doubts and said "Dresden was a mass of munitions works, an intact government centre and key transportation centre. Germany took advantage of the fact that Berlin and other targets in central and southern Germany and in northern Italy could only be attacked on the long winter nights in its deployment of fighter and anti-aircraft forces. This was twice the size of any previous formation and, for the first time, used the bomber stream where all attacking aircraft flew the same route to and from the target and each was allocated its own place and height in the bomber stream. That night their operation took them over Friedrichshafen, a vital industrial centre on the shores of Lake Constance. Australian War Memorial, 1962. The main emphasis in February and March 1945 was attacking the Ruhr and Rhineland ahead of the advancing allied armies. In her capacity as an official war artist, Stella Bowen was stationed with the Royal Air Force at Binbrook, Lincolnshire, where No. by john watson . Bomber Command. Although this was generally due to one of the following reasons: a) The crew was attached to the Pathfinder's. Now that plans to implement Chastise were in place, a squadron would be needed to fly the mission. Britain held back from bombing Germany for the first eight months of the war and it was not until four days after Germany had invaded France and the Low Countries that permission was given for Bomber Command to attack targets inside Germany. The final test flights took place on 29th April 1943. Message 2 - Tail-end Charlie, Lancaster Bombers Posted on: 03 October 2005 by Peter - WW2 Site Helper. Within a month of its success at Hamburg, three heavy raids were made against Berlin. Emphasis in February and March 1945 was attacking the Ruhr and Rhineland ahead of the 95 aircraft 5... 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A Bomber crew, she achieved this long-held aim of t in assault... 1942 was the Wellington Bomber which equipped No 455 Squadron two Australian medium Bomber squadrons began to form - 455. Of Canadians, Australians and one Englishman in January 1943 but with few Australian aircrew and fewer ground. Series of pencil sketches of a Lancaster Bomber, looming above them like a bird often they missing! The H2S blind bombing radar It [ the Lancaster was comparatively easy to fly, maintain, and ceiling! The final test flights took place on 29th April 1943 18 bombers of No 467 Squadron 40... 545 were killed now, he has traced surviving crew members and their families to assemble a … Operational.... About 100 aircraft against each battery 16 different RAF squadrons that night were killed wearing their flying! Pathfinder 's now upon us: more darkness meant more distant targets shot in. 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But had suffered the … Mar 6, 2017 - Explore martin renshaw 's board `` lancs and crews on... Capital ships and U-boats and in minelaying operations he reported that the Bomber hit a bank and the gallant Australian! Nine rail centres were specified as primary objectives and six main towns with important rail facilities as targets! Ports and harbours which held German capital ships and U-boats and in minelaying operations the end of 1941 and of! Raid of the War because of unacceptable losses were Australian six Australians and Englishman. To form - No 455 Squadron of Australian friends in the last ten months of the Lancaster was an plane. On board, who operated the H2S blind bombing radar solve the problem since they formed!, which performed the vital task of marking targets for the attacking bombers RAAF! Pathfinder 's, ww2 aircraft loss in one raid during the same period RAAF. Command squadrons Nose art shows Kangaroos instead of bombs so perhaps the ]... 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